Podcasts
While fans chant Vermes Out, Cauldron leadership remains silent
Sporting KC fans were chanting Vermes Out during another home loss, but Cauldron leadership has yet to break their silence about the unacceptable state of the club.
This past Saturday was the most lifeless and sad I’ve ever seen the KC Cauldron. It might have felt like The Blue Hell, but only if you were standing in it.
The only songs sung with real energy during Sporting KC’s 2-0 loss at home to CF Montreal, were chants of “Vermes Out”. Fans themselves are expressing their frustrations in the stadium, and online. But Cauldron leadership has yet to officially speak up and break the silence.
So, what should they do exactly? That’s one of our discussions in a really fun, long episode of Shades of Blue titled Ndefinitely. Hopefully we can make you smile between all the doom and gloom.
“The calves are back, and so can you!” Thank you to our totally real and not made up sponsor, Logan Legs.
Openly calling on @KCCauldron leadership to use its platform to publicly be a voice for its membership and supporters in a manner befitting an independent supporter group. The President and board can no longer be silent in the face of the club we love being in such a state.
— Zachary 🏙️ (@ZachIsHere) April 30, 2023
We start off with postgame audio from Johnny Russell and the most ridiculous stat you’ve heard all year. Gadi Kinda made his MLS debut in a 2-0 home loss to CF Montreal. Is he going to save us?
In the wake of Ben Sweat’s swift departure, we do some reminiscing with the Top 5 Jettisons in club history.
Peter Vermes responds to the “Vermes Out” calls. The players on the field looked defeated this match and it begs the question… is it possible Vermes could lose the locker room?
Timestamps
04:00 – “Don’t Deserve to Wear the Shirt”
13:00 – Gadi Kinda Debut
20:00 – Ted Lasso & Total Football
27:00 – Top 5 Jettisoned Players
38:00 – Peter Responds to Vermes Out
56:00 – State of the Cauldron
1:10:00 – Losing the Locker Room
Find the KC Soccer Journal wherever you get your podcasts. Please subscribe, rate, & review if you like the show! You can follow Cody @ThatCodyTho, Thad @TheBackpost, and Robert @SpKCLife.
Spotify | Apple
Across State Lines: Gil and Spokane Head to USL1 Championship
Hailie Mace Says Goodbye to Kansas City and the Current
Seven Current Players, Andonovski Named Finalists for Year End Awards
Juice Boxes and Post Game Stats: Current Season Ends
KC Current’s NWSL Shield-winning season ends vs. Gotham
Lots of Random Sporting KC News and KC Current Playoffs
Lo LaBonta Signs Long-term Extension with KC Current
Quarterfinals in KC: Current host Gotham
Hailie Mace Says Goodbye to Kansas City and the Current
I’ve had issues with the Cauldron leadership even before the banning. There’s no point to an independent supporters’ group that doesn’t speak for the supporters. They’re just another arm of the Front Office, at this point.
It certainly seems that way.
I’d love to know the full story of what caused the Ultras to get banned last season. From an outside perspective, it looks as if the FO was sending a message: toe the line, or face the same fate.
Again, I’m not privy to the details; I’m only aware of what was (allowed to be?) reported. What I remember seeing, though, appeared awfully tame. If that’s all it was the FO have a mighty thin skin.
#VermesOut
#BlissOut
#WeDeserveBetter
I, like you, don’t know anything besides snippets of info that’s been whispered about. However, I still don’t get how a capo can be allowed to storm around pouting throughout the cauldron and instigate like he did and it not be addressed. No “we are aware of an incident with one of our capos and are investigating ” or “so and so are no longer affiliated with the cauldron” nothing. Just silence and deleting any reference to it.
FCU got into a fight with some opposing fans. That’s why they got banned.
That’s a fair response to that kind of action. Thanks for enlightening me, DG.
#VermesOut
#BlissOut
#WeDeserveBetter
First, thanks for using my audio from my question to PV about the chant.
I will say, I was asking around the press box and no one seemed like they were going to ask PV about his job. Sperry went first, as always, and he had fair questions, but nothing about PVs job. No one else had their hand up (I didn’t see when Thad entered, but it started very fast, as he said) so I asked.
Thanks Thad and Robert for defending my question.
And Cody, I’ve literally never seen you ask a question in a presser. It’s hard. How would you have asked it differently? Or would you have asked anything at all?
Credit to you Chad for having the guts to ask that question, becasue it’s a question that everyone wants to hear the answer to, but few want to ask. The idea that you “let him off the hook” by asking if he heard the chants is nonsense. Even if you omit that phrase from the question, PV could have just as easily still said “I didn’t hear them, I can’t speak to that,” etc. I thought it was tactful from you to ask the question that way, because you don’t want to come in too hot when tackling a sensitive subject like that.
I also find it hard to believe Vermes didn’t hear it…but can’t say I’m surprised that he won’t broach that subject, as he generally seems to skirt around questions regarding his own accountability.
It is hard. And that’s why everyone on the show acknowledged it after we played it. I didn’t intend to offend you, so I’m sorry. Made a joke and then we all gave you kudos for it. That’s how we do things on the show a lot.
How many times have you actually seen me in a presser at all? If I ever go and have a question to ask, I wait for the regulars to ask first. To answer your question, if nobody else brought it up, I would have asked it closer to how Pablo Maurer asked it. If he feels pressure or thinks his job is in jeopardy.
So again nice job for broaching the subject. Also, we have DM’s man.
If you call someone out in a public forum, you’re the one who invited public discourse.
“Calling someone out”? “Public discourse”? What in the world. That is just simply not what I was trying to do. The overarching joke on our show is self deprecating humor. Chad is on our KCSJ team. We’re all on the same team here, I thought.
I was going for the humor that we are a ragtag crew and we are not the most professional journalists on the planet, like we always do. And we immediately followed it up with support and kudos and acknowledgement that it’s not an easy thing to do.
I see now I stepped over a line and that’s why I apologized.
Quite literally the only thing I commented on was the fact that you discussed a person publicly on a podcast, yet think they should have to address you privately in response. That does not compute to me regardless of who you are talking about, what you said about them, or how you were trying to come across.
So I haven’t listened to the pod, because I’ve found it isn’t my style. So I don’t have an informed take on the original controversy. But based on this exchange I have to agree with Kat. Especially since DMs go both ways; you could always have sent Chad a DM rather than calling him out publicly for not using one.
If/when you listen to this episode, a topic of discussion during the jettisoned players segment is about how some agent (I think for Kévin Oliveira?) used to pop up in the comments on TBT from time to time in response to things said about their client. Their client was discussed publicly (I can’t recall if it was on pods and/or articles) and TBT provided a platform for the agent to respond. It’s how this all works no matter who is involved, what was said, or the intention. For better or for worse.
True. But you NEVER see agents publicly responding on message boards for any sport. You never see guys like Drew Rosenhaus on arrowhead pride.
It was jarring because it deviated so widely from professional norms.
That’s not the point. But no one seems to be understanding me so I’m done.
Kat, you’ll have to forgive me. I’m not being purposefully dense but I guess I’m just genuinely not understanding. I’m not trying to be difficult with you.
I’m frustrated because in my initial comment, all I discussed was the idea that if a person speaks publicly, they are opening themselves up to a public response. Cody did not really respond to that and instead replied to me about the specifics of the situation which I never commented on. I purposely did not because regardless of who said what about Chad, only he can determine how it made him feel and how he wants to respond. However, the general idea that members of the community shouldn’t necessarily openly share their feelings on publicly provided KCSJ content does not sit well with me.
My second comment in reply to Cody was to more clearly explain that it does not matter who said what or why… it’s a public podcast. You are opening yourself up to engagement regardless of who you are, what you say, or why.
My comment to KCOutsider about the agent discussion was to establish that all the folks on the pod are well aware that people you might not expect are going to comment on public content. No one has to like it, but it comes with the territory.
It doesn’t matter if a commenter/comment is jarring or deviates from the norm. The point is a person discussed publicly has every right to answer back publicly.
I think it would help to listen to the original comment. I am pretty sure there was no intent to call Chad out, just the comment that the question left PV wiggle room to not answer. Robert and I both pointed out it is not easy to ask those questions and we moved on.
I do see and understand where Chad felt he could and should give Cody some crap back… I probably would have also.
I probably should have left well enough alone. It wasn’t my argument. I just thought Kat was making decent points and wanted to express that. This damn team has us turning on one another, here and in the Cauldron.
Thank you for the support, sincerely. But it’s pretty clear I’m the problem.
You are not the problem.
It is not easy to ask questions in those pressers sometimes. Especially for us that are not full-time reporters and also have a vested interest in the team. I am not sure I would have asked it any differently than Chad but I tend to leave a little wiggle room in initial questions also.
I came in while PV was answering Sperry and right before you asked. I was running late because I was on the Cauldron end in the second half and took a little time expecting the Montreal coach to go first.
I don’t think Cody meant to call you out or anything as much as an observation. Your question asking has come a long way over the last couple of years.
It sure has come a long way! I was so bad! Now I’m only sorta bad, some of the time.
Same for most of us.
I’m gonna push back on the thought about Peter’s job. The whole, it’s sad to think about Peter being fired because of how things were before perfectly explains the current state of the team. This team experienced success that it just replicated the same thing expecting the same results, never taking into account when the league would catch on and the expansion of the league making it a battle on the field and off players and resources. Others evolved, we didn’t. Instead, we have turned into the yesteryear club that constantly uses the past as a means to justify the process. You can’t do that anymore, you can’t continue to hold on to something that is gone. If you continue to hold on to Peter because he’s the guy who built the team and there’s good memories attached to him you’re not ever going to move forward. Are things guaranteed to be fixed, no. Could things get worse before they get better, sure. But, you can’t continue to hold on to a coach because he did it before. It’s clear he’s ran his course, all things end. Arenas left the Galaxy, wenger got scooted out the door, hell Bobby Bowden “retired” from Florida state and he was arguably the Vermes of college football.
It’s also more and more annoying his response to fan opinion being, oh I didn’t hear it. It’s in line with I think last year, when he was asked about how his security was and he made a sarcastic comment about how he has a good relationship with his boss and “I hear he has a great haircut”. Maybe don’t poke the bear when people are clearly agitated.
To get mildly political, it reminds me of people hanging on to Clinton or Reagan as a model for modern politicians; you can admire their achievements while still recognizing that the world has changed and their policies or personalities aren’t necessarily the most competitive or appropriate anymore, or admitting that they did, in fact, have faults.
Completely agree, I almost added that in my original comment but didn’t want to chance someone getting upset about using a political analogy
Ole Farmhand over here doing a good job using someone from each party. Smart! And very appropriate.
It is hard for people to leave behind the memory of something good. A leader, a player, a coach… a former significant other sometimes.
A win…
I think what Thad and Robert were saying, and I could be wrong, is if and when Vermes gets fired (because they all do eventually, even if it’s not as soon as many would want), is that it’s the end of an era if he’s gone.
I can’t recall over all the episodes if either of them have ever said they were ready for him to be fired or not, but I definitely think their point stands. And it’s a personal point. Others don’t have to be sad.
I think it’ll be a little sad in a way. Even if he ultimately ends up deserving it. I, and many others, have only known PV as the coach. It’ll be kind of weird if/when he’s gone.
Yep. If/when PV is fired it will be sad. It has been a great run but times do change and people need to change with them… or leave. The longest run of success and the guy who built the club leaving will be sad. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t happen.
I appreciate you crediting me with the stat at the beginning of the episode! As for fan protests succeeding in getting anything changed, the one I can point to was the Philadelphia Sons of Ben’s 2015 funeral procession protest, which preceded the ousting of then-CEO Nick Sakiewicz after they lost the Open Cup final to SKC. It didn’t immediately lead to Sakiewicz’s dismissal, it took about four months to get there, but they got the club to respond to them with a statement within the month, so it got their attention, and it might’ve prompted action when inaction might’ve otherwise been justified after a near-USOC winning run.
The contrast between Galaxy supporters groups and SKC is quite something.
A few weeks back, I was listening to an episode of no other pod. The guest on there asked if it was worthwhile to consider fan protests, and the response was around the line of any sort of sustained criticism or lack of support could prompt ownership to move the team……..
I’m sorry, but if an organization is that sensitive that it can’t handle being called out for falling sort of expectations is so pathetic I would gladly support relocating. It’s so crazy to me that so much of the fan base believes being a fan and follower of the team means you aren’t allowed to criticize or disagree with the club both publicly and privately.
I genuinely don’t think ownership would move the franchise. The Illig and Patterson families are from KC and are institutions here. The club has made money here when a lot of other markets weren’t making money. They got tax breaks to build the stadium here.
Fan protests work to put pressure on the club to make changes because the club is still a business venture. Don’t buy merch. Don’t buy concessions. Don’t buy tickets. And if the cauldron makes it clear that they’re doing that until Vermes is gone, ownership won’t be able to point the finger at the market. They’ll have to point to themselves.
Yeah. I don’t see any way this team gets moved just because the fans push to get a coach fired. That’s a dumpster fire take. Sporting is putrid and still had better than average attendance for a wooden spoon 6pointer.
There are teams in MLS that I could see moving: Houston, Vancouver, the Fire. All of whom get miserable attendance and/or have terrible stadium and market situations.
SKC’s fan base can make #VermesOut trend on Twitter. Which points again to something I have always pushed back on: This is not a small market. But it will be a much smaller market if ownership doesn’t step up and act. Especially when there’s a shiny new thing for people in middle and southern Missouri to look at.
It’d be pretty shocking if they would relocate due to fan criticism/protest – the club doesn’t deserve KC and its fans if that is truly their attitude (I don’t think it would ever happen, btw). The fact that we’re all mad at the current state of the club proves we care!
Yeah, I cannot see them moving over some protests. I don’t consistently listen to NOP, so I don’t know if some nuance was lost or if they are just throwing out ideas. But I cannot imagine that would happen at all. I suppose they could sell, but MLS values are skyrocketing, and I think they take pride in KC and what they built in SKC and would fire PV long before that.
Does anyone know what episode or about where in the episode. I’d like to hear the context of that comment.
I also don’t listen to NoP but I’m guessing Dan said it since it’s an absurd take.
Ha! Your right it was. I’ll find the link to the episode from YouTube
Starts around 22 mins when talking about walkouts and the exact comment is around 24 mins
https://youtu.be/6BHcYcLeyTQ
In case the link doesn’t work, the title is: What is WRONG with sporting Kansas City
It’s through the kcsn YouTube page
I appreciate you putting the link. It does add context to hear the whole thing. With anything, the “hot take” itself gets a lot of attention. But he seems to be saying if you don’t support a team long enough, they could leave if it’s not financially feasible.
But he doesn’t say if you walkout/boycott, they are going to immediately relocate. And he also says it’s not going to happen.
But the hot take thing sticks in your mind. I’m guilty of hearing a ‘take’ and then my mind starts racing and I don’t even process the rest of the comment.
It’s like how at post-game presser with Peter, I can’t type all the words he says fast enough. So, I type some quotes and people get PISSED at him. Leaving out that we asked the questions to illicit some of these responses and you are getting a snippet (not that some of his full quotes aren’t a bit baffling).
This did make me chuckle Greenwald (I can’t even just say David with two David’s in this thread).
I feel like I have to push back on Cody’s defense of PV in the middle (not crapping on you personally, just on the take). I completely disagree with the mindset that what is happening right now is more a series of unfortunate events rather than the product of mistakes that Vermes has made over the past years. I’m 100% with you that it will be sad to see him go and it sucks to lose someone that has such a history with the club, but this is not only because we’ve had injuries to DPs. Those have definitely been major setbacks to our team, but they have also been catastrophic because of personnel choices that PV is in charge of. I hate to do it, but I will point to Seattle and the injury woes they have experienced with their DPs: Lodeiro, Ruidiaz, and (until last year) Joao Paolo. They haven’t all been gone at the same time for an entire season, but how many times over the past couple of years has one of them been gone long-term and another gone out for a moderate stretch of time? Their roster is constructed in such a way that they can weather the storm. Ours has almost never felt like that and that falls on PV. Injuries are a part of the game and you have to build a team with those in mind.
Furthermore, I know you all have gone back in forth on youth in the team, but I agree with DG’s take that PV’s roster strategies are focused on getting bargain, mid-to-late twenties players who won’t be around for longer than a few years. All of the guys that we brought in this transfer window (outside of draft picks/emergency signings) are 29 or older. Last year, we brought in three U-22 guys that hardly played (and still hardly do) and Willy Agada, the one young guy that I will admit has played, but even then it was in extreme circumstances that were unlikely (ie. PV lost faith in Shelton–the real Christmas miracle). Even our record setting DP striker was 29 when we brought him in! If this isn’t a pattern, then I don’t know how to explain this.
And, on top of all of this, he continues to resign aging talent instead of looking for the next replacement at those positions. I love Roger and Zusi, and they have admittedly played well at certain points throughout the last three seasons, but imagine if we would have gone out and signed someone else younger, with potential in both of their positions and built them up over the past three years. What would those positions look like now? If those two were really so important to the team culture, then you should have had them retire as legends and join the coaching staff to continue ushering in the next generation.
This is turning into something much longer than I intended and I still feel myself itching to write about the disaster contract with Khiry and the worst trade he’s ever made for Kelyn freaking Rowe, but I will place that back on the shelf right next to the joy I once felt for this team. PV has done so much for this club, but it’s time for us all to move on and start looking towards the future. So many decisions from Sporting over the past few years have felt like bandaids trying to patch gaping holes and it’s time to rip them off and start patching up the mess that is left behind.
Well said. If only we had a fanpost button like on TBT.
If you ever want to take a comment like this and flesh it out slightly, it’d make an interesting article I think. You can always DM me on Twitter and if we ever figure out how to build an About page I’ll put my email on there!
I am and have been working on all article that happens to coincide with ideas here and in other comments. Should finally be ready end of the week.
Hey I appreciate that! That would be cool if I ever work myself up into a righteous rage again, but it sounds like Robert will be coming out with something very similar that I’m sure will be a little more articulate than me. I may dust off my old Twitter account and message sometime.
Really good points here. I had said a week or two ago that the way PV constructs and manages the roster is what worked or what was the norm in the MLS 10-15 years ago. The landscape has dramatically shifted and you now have much younger DPs coming to the league to play during their prime years, plus a lot of young talent coming to our shores instead of Europe as their first major stepping stone. Youth academies are also flourishing across the league but it seems that we have not taken full advantage of our SKII setup. All in all, we’ve failed to capitalize on these shifting trends and are now way behind the curve.
Were there unfortunate events that exacerbated the downturn? Sure.
But I agree this is far more than just being unlucky. Unlucky can describe 1 season. It can’t describe 3 out of 5. Vermes bas repeatedly given up on younger players and filled their positions with 28-29yr olds, or with his “core.” And this in a capped league..where veterans cost more than youth. Which means the depth of the roster is always less than a team that builds a cap friendly roster.
Nor is the complaint about running those vets into the ground a new thing. We’ve been talking about the minutes Vermes puts on his starters for a decade. Sooner or later that will come back to haunt.
Add to that an unwillingness to accept teams have figured out how to exploit SKC’s system, and I’m sorry. But this was more then being unlucky.
No worries at all! I don’t really even disagree. Nice work on this.
I’d expand on this to emphasize that when he does have younger players on the roster, he tends to stash them on the bench. Or he seems to hold them to a higher standard than older players, benching them for any mistake while giving the oldsters a mile-long leash. And of course this ends up cyclical, because the younger players don’t get game time so of course they don’t improve and of course they make mistakes. Eventually they go stale, want to leave, or are driven off. SKC is not an attractive place to be as a young player.
Igor Juliao was cut halfway through his loan after that Minnesota United game (?). A jettison if I’ve ever seen one.I’m not sure I agree that BOTH a tactical and roster overhaul are needed, since I’d like to see a roster overhaul with the same general tactical approach, but it feels unavoidable since PV is in charge of both sectors.Wish I could copy/paste my old fanpost on the “Ghost Roster”… pretty much sums up my thoughts on the issues in roster management and player recruitment.The Athletic surveyed MLS GMs and asked which assistant coaches are most ready to be head coaches (or similar wording) and Kerry Zavagnin was among the top vote getters. Giving him the rest of the season would be a useful evaluation.
Ooooh man that’s so good! How could I forget Igor? Well done.
seems I need to get used to the new formatting on this site haha.
It would be great to hear from the cauldron, but why haven’t we heard from ownership? A large part of the fans’ frustration comes from witnessing insanity — as the old saying goes, doing the same thing repeatedly but expecting different results.
Any statement of dissatisfaction about the current course of action (without the defensiveness we’ve heard from PV and Reid) would reassure fans that they are indeed concerned about the direction of the club. Right now, they just seem absent and aloof. Like with any business, a passionate fan (and team!) culture starts at the top.
It honestly feels like everyone in leadership was caught entirely by surprise and is circling the wagons because they don’t know what to do and/or think they can ride it out. In fairness, most of us were caught by surprise because even the pessimists didn’t have “MLS-record-bad-start with fans chanting Vermes out” on their 2023 SKC bingo card.
But on the other hand, most of us have been openly identifying problems/cracks in the system for years, so if ownership/leadership didn’t recognize those, that seems rather damning. Just because we didn’t think the foundation would shatter this badly, doesn’t mean the cracks weren’t there and shouldn’t have been addressed.
Honestly, as a geologist, it sort of feels like when a natural disaster happens and people are all “OMG I had no idea” and every scientist is like “yeah, we’ve been warning about this for years”.
I was trying to upvote all the negative votes and it added mine on the negative side. I’m sorry everyone…I don’t like the red minus option and I really wanted to balance it to zero. Carry on all. My team sucks and that is plenty of sadness for all of us.